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This tile is from Newbies 29: What You Talkin Bout Willis?

Comment: Cigarettes Don't Cause Death , Cancer Does... Trust the Industry..
Checked out at: October 08, 2003
Checked in at: October 08, 2003
Checkout tile:


Maybe I'm Overreacting
Maybe I'm just overreacting, but this tile offends me as a jew.
Re: Maybe I'm Overreacting
its not meant in an antisemitic way... it compares the tobacco industry with nazis.
Re: Maybe I'm Overreacting
comment is "Cigarettes Don't Cause Death , Cancer Does... Trust the Industry.."
are you saying that the cigarette companies are an evil facist empire?

...still don't see what this has to do with "what you talkin bout willis?"
i don't think anyone on diff'rent strokes smoked

my conclusion:
cigarettes in the shape of a swastika...
unnecessary nazi iconography.
Re: Re: Maybe I'm Overreacting
Just so you know m0nde, and other n00bs, Themes on quilts are mainly SUGGESTIONS, not requirements. I do prefer the subject matter to match the theme or message to maintain consistency, but you dont want 40 tiles of Different Strokes portraits do ya?

A great example is one of the past mainquilts, which the theme was Mideival Times. There were about 30 dragons, castles, and maidens which made the quilt seem boring and redundant in some areas. So it's good to stray from the theme some, shit if you tried, you could come up with a ludicrous (not the rapper) comparison that matches the theme with anything.

Lets see.. Willis was in a Hollywood TV Show, Jews run Hollywood, Media controls and persuades the minds of the general public, such as the propaganda during Hitler's rule, much like Cigarettes control your urge to smoke... am I beginning to sound like a character on South Park or sumfin??? lol. Ok, I've lost myself, i'm done typing. ;))))
Re: Maybe I'm Overreacting
and me as a gypsy [Romany]..... sorry

i didn't and won't vote though
Re: Re: Maybe I'm Overreacting
i dont vote on it too, as a smoker im offendet by it too. anyway, a swastica is not be the best symbol for the tobacco industry imo.
Re: Re: Maybe I'm Overreacting
even though i understand that it wasn't meant to hurt, and is actually an itelligent use of the icon, used in protest of the tobacco industry... it's still very hard to dissociate the symbol from the holocaust
It is just a symbol...
... and if you search for the symbol origin, it is not original from nazism. Oh well, I don't think it is offensive in any way to use it. At least, it is not offensive for me.
Re: It is just a symbol...
i know the symbol was used before the holocaust...

but it is much more world recognized as the adopted nazi symbol, and to say that it doesn't bother you in any way kinda belittles the memories, fears, and feelings of those people whose families were persecuted and slaughtered.
Re: Re: It is just a symbol...
I think I wrote it wrong, maybe because my English. The symbol itself, that set of lines, doesn't hurt me at all. Of course, I'm against that holocaust. Well, if somebody would be hurt looking at it, then I will not use it in my tiles or anything.
Re: Re: Re: It is just a symbol...
i understand Javier ;o) no problem. no offense was taken or intended.

just seemed like this was going to be a fun debate, so i jumped in XD
some advices
-there is a black line on the left & bottom, i would ask to recheck it out again to remove it.

-generally, its not very good to place something directly in the middle of your tile. imagine the tile as a part of a big image and not as a single image. dont put an idea into a tile, get the ideas from the borders, try to continue them.
Re: some advices
the swastika was originally a buddhist symbol. the nazis used it, but they flipped it backwords so the legs point the other way. i have mixed feelings about this use of symbology. if you are trying to make a point about ciggarette companies, i suppose i can understand (even though i am a smoker). however, the use of such a powerful symbol to make a statement about an industry may be demeaning to the millions of jewish people (and others) directly affected by the holocaust. no voting from me.
Re: some advices
purely on tiling, you've done a decent job.
after reading the tiling tutorials, i can see that you should spend some time on your borders - i'm having a hard time making mine seamless as well. you did continue whatever was to the top, left and right of your swastika, but you placed this thing right in the middle, leaving nothing but a red field for the person below.
on an other note, i cannot make out that the image is made up of cigarettes. what throws me off is the blood in the middle.
I get it.
I think I see what the message is.

It is interesting to think about the number of deaths caused by nazi's and the number of deaths from smoking. People look at the holocaust in such a negative way, as they should, but yet here you have legal corporations killing billions of people every year, and we think its cool to smoke. Quite humorous.

A few helpful suggestions:
Watch your borders, there is a lot of hard black around the edges.
The main focus is too centered, like razghul said. Try to leave more interesting objects around the corners too.

I'm not a jew, I am a smoker, and I like this tile. just FYI. ;)
sinister silence
Re: I get it.
THANK YOU someone with common sense gets the point...

have none of you seen the anti-smoking commercial where they say "menthol cigarettes leave 250,000 menty fresh african american corpses each year" ?

heh as v1 stated its compairing tabacco companies to nazis by the amounts of deaths its left over a LONG time , not to mention people are slaves to cigarettes and are confined by them... i am a smoker , and i have jewish family members.. in no way was i insulting anyone..

cigarettes are the only product that DON'T have a list of ingrediants on them..

anyone that smokes is a slave including ME.. i was expressing it in art , as the commercial said "menty fresh african american corpses" so it is on topic of the quilt..

and on another note is art not supposed to be controversal ?

also you know phillip morris owns kraft any man other FOOD companies as well?.. remember the chalky candy cigarettes ..? wonder why they're selling them anymore?.. in movies , tv , and in the candy isle of your gas station as a child the impression to smoke was around.. and still is..

we're all slaves to corperations..

sinister silence
Re: Re: I get it.
also if you see something like that and SEE it in a negative way its your fault for seeing it in a negative way.. of course its gonna look negative..
Re: Re: Re: I get it.
ok now you lost me... which part of murder, death, cancer, the holocaust, and enslavement by tobacco companies should we see as positive? XD
Re: Re: Re: Re: I get it.
The drawing of this tile to express ideas and opinions is the positive. The mass killing of people, I think, would be the negative. Unless of course, you think of the number of STUPID people killed. Perhaps the corporations are doing us a favor by ridding of the idiots that plaque the earth. Hmmm, I like tiles that spark conversation and get us thinking. Good work sinister. Lol.
as i stated waaay earlier in this thread....

...i actually think it's an itelligent use of the icon, used in protest of the tobacco industry... [however inaccurate i think the analogy may be]

but HAH ...coming from two admitted smokers? i think you just disqualified yourselves as the judges of common sense hahaha ;o))

i don't smoke cigarettes never did and i shut out their mindless advertising, always have... just seemed to be common sense.

no one thought you were intentionally and specifically thumbing your nose at the victims of the holocaust. but common sense shoulda told you that using a swastika would get a lot of flack. surely you expected it. no? ok i'll tell you now... expect flak if you use a swastika in your tiles. it's a very sensitive subject... don't play innocent. you don't really expect us to believe that you thought no one would be insulted, or make comment, do you? ;oD

and yes controversy is cool, expect flak though XD [like say, if you made a religiously controversial statement with a tile for instance ;o]


sinister silence
Re: as i stated waaay earlier in this thread....
no i didn't expect "flak" i expected intelligent people to get the point without percieving it in some narrow minded negative way.. no "playing innocent" about it.. i bet tabacco has killed AS many if not more people than the poor souls that lost their lives during WWII ... heh..

you >> "i don't smoke cigarettes never did and i shut out their mindless
you >> advertising, always have... just seemed to be common sense."

heh the advertising has nothing to do with it , i smoke because i ENJOY it , not because a commercial/ad told me to.. some people start smoking out of curiousity.. after all it is human nature to be inquisitive.. amd if you "blocked it out" then that means you must have been around it often , i am an anti tv/media person , always have been.. and you said you have never done it , what makes you think YOU won't like it ?.. =)
what makes you think YOU won't like it ?.. =)
cause i can smell and taste it when others smoke, i can see the "hooked" look in peoples eyes when they just have to have one, i see them coughing their lungs out and rationalizing it... my parents chain smoked, i smelled like smoke, my eyes burned all the time and i got bronchitis frequently as a result of their second hand smoke... it's just a nasty habit. it even looks silly... puts me in mind of chimps, with branches they've pulled out of a fire held in their lips. ;o)

if you say you didn't expect flak/controversy then why claim it as an "artist's inalienable right"? i still say you're playing innocent, using a nazi symbol to make your point is as "sinned-sational" a gimmick as is your "god is..." title.
clever advertising and slick use of iconography [slick use of an offensive icon in this case]. if you're not in advertising maybe you should be ;oD

i "get the point". got it in a split second, it's not hard to see. surely you see the other side as well. i think everyone can see the others point of view. no narrow mindedness on either side. just a friendly discussion XD

Re: Re: as i stated waaay earlier in this thread....
Why not just accept the fact that some people cannot stop themselves from bitching? Please don't find yourself tripping over your feet to apologize for what should be termed a controversial contribution, a long time ago, I realized that you may please SOME of the people Some of the time but you'll never please everyone.
I'll be quick to admit that the imagery was hokey, contrived and gimmicky but if you can lose the political inuendo and continue with the fine artwork, I think that you'll nicely survive this exercise that is becoming so futile to you at this stage of your tiling career.

Be ready to accept every criticism which comes your way, it'll toughen you up, thicken your internet hide, as it were. As an early fighter of the ICE program, I'll hope to remind you that you are appreciated and loved here but will remind you that on occasion, ball-busting is the order of the day. You might look at my score and feel as if I'm too distant to understand your pressures or your pains but I'll readily admit that I'm as fucked in the head as any other whom has crossed your path and until I was able to accept criticism, there wasn't SHIT that these wonderful people could do with me.

This isn't about Swastikas nor Navajo art or even Buddah, it's about YOU having to take your place in a pecking order, about your willingness to accept these comments without your feeling the need to defend your every pixel. Lastly, I'll appeal to you to take this and every other comment into stride, to realize that we're all friends here who are under obligation to speak our minds to one another. Please, de-personalize this and every issue connected with this, we're a collaborative of talented people who often seem a tad overbearing but are affected in the manner of the masters. I'm witholding my scoring in this tiles case because I am awaiting your next. Please don't feel as if you are not appreciated, you are and I'm neither an administrator nor a good critic but I like your style. Spend as much time doing your artwork as you do defending your artwork and I'm sure that you'll rate quite highly.
Oh, and as far as your feelings about cigarettes, I concur with you 100%. I've got Cancer and I wish with all of my heart that I never picked up the first one! Too soon we get old, too late we get smart!!!
Best wishes to you- young artist! Eddie..........
Re: Re: Re: as i stated waaay earlier in this thread....
sorry to hear your sick Ed, hope all goes well
Re: Re: Re: Re: as i stated waaay earlier in this thread....
nicely said as usual. i wish you well also.
Re: as i stated waaay earlier in this thread....
you disqualified also
my cia spy told me you lied about smoking
Re: Re: as i stated waaay earlier in this thread....
never tobacco
In my opinion...
comparing these facts about big corptations/smoking to the holocaust is absolutely disgusting, if meant seriously. The argument "number of deaths" can't and shouldn't be compared because its a completely different incident. If "number of deaths" counted, what about... (several incidents in history can be inserted here). Also, the argument "slavery" doesn't fit at all. The holocaust is different in so many ways, it would take too long to explain it here. Just one thing: Smokers might be victims of their addiction, corporations might make lots of money with that, but still: I smoke voluntarily.

I wish this tile were deleted.
It makes me very angry, and NOT for the intended reason...

I vote -5 and I don't care if this is supposed to be art.
Re: In my opinion...
car crashes kill so many people each year....
that's it, ford, nissan, volvo, toyota, dodge, land rover and honda are nazis!!!! stop the evil car corporations!
Re: Re: In my opinion...
I'm with you all the way! Hahaha. Seriously.
er.. i don't think i'm right
but... isn't the swastika the other way around? don't the arms point right? well, that would mean that this is the other kind (i remember seeing on a piece of indian art a swastika, well, it wasn't a swastika, it was facing the other way. our teachers had to explain to us what it meant and all.)

anway, just wondering if i was right in thinking that this isn't the nazi swastika.
Re: er.. i don't think i'm right
nazi swastikas can be found which bend in either direction
i made a tile on a warquilt themed
where i had writed "no more wars"...
everybody voted
negative ...

you should worry about bush
he is a liar and could be the worst nazi ever
because he is an ignorant chimp wit -40 inteligence stats
he is totaly corupted.
yes he is no more bin's laden friends
but they made petrol bussiness together before.
this tile is a message
it's not an offense

lately ,a yiddish(company) made
wich look like racist ones
to make people think.
exemple :
"what this paki'(stanguy) is doing in that restaurant?"
this is not the holocaust /massacre sign
it's the nazi one

so it mean facist first

what about a governement who take 80 percent taxes
on the prices of cigs
pure contradiction

Re: and
Would I be out of place in saying: "I like Pussy"?
Re: Re: and
if it's because of the france position in irak war
then go your way.
if it's about tony
i don't care your coments sorry.

ps: hard edges on tile's
borders are from experts like noobs
Re: Re: Re: and


"i like pussy" = "i like women".... so, i believe it was a lighthearted attempt to change the subject
sinister silence
Re: and
thank you man , i'm glad someone else has the common sense to see what this tile plainly states.. also glad someone sees what a puppet bush is...

but besides that , i think its amusing that people got offended by this tile , i can draw a tile that cartoonishly looks like a cigarette swasticka , and it offends people , but i draw a tile with almost every african american stereo type possible (kfc + 40 tile) and people think its good.. haha just prooves how some of these people are tools...

whats funny is i noticed i draw all my tiles out by hand , and other people sink to taking regular pictures and using filters and etc over it instead of actually taking the time to draw , then turn around and throw negative votes & comments my way.. some of these people haven't the slightest clue..

but you seem to have common sense man , glad to see someone besides v1 on here has common sense...

if these people can get offended by my tile they should never watch family guy hahaha.. but votes or not , i consider this tile a GREAT accomplishment.. look at the string of posts coming from it.. heh .. i have the power to spark things like that.. makes me feel good.
I bought a digital camera...
... it is a Nikon Coolpix2100, it works very very good. If you are going to buy one, I advice you to buy a Nikon, very very good optics.
Re: I bought a digital camera...
Hey Javier, buddy, why don't you buy me one too? Nikon's kick some serious ass ;-)
Re: Re: I bought a digital camera...
I will think about it, NetCritter, while I think about it, I'm going to write you the Spanish text of Macarena's song:

Dale a tu cuerpo alegría Macarena,
que tu cuerpo es para darle alegría cosa buena,
Dale a tu cuerpo alegría Macarena,
ehhhhhh Macarena!

Macarena tiene un novio que se llama,
que se llama de apellido Vitorino,
y en la jura de bandera del muchacho,
se la dió con dos amigos

Re: Re: Re: I bought a digital camera...
Thanks for putting that STUPID song in my head. Now I need to find some music to make it go away before it drives me insane!

And as luck would have it, I took all of my CD's home last week... :-0
Re: I bought a digital camera...
i think the relevance has to do with nikon and the sponsorship of japan's optical industry by the imperial japanese navy, 1917-1945.
After WWII, the shift was into commercial viability. i don't think they killed people with their lenses during either of the wars, though.
One of my friends...
... told me that her dream is to swim in a pool with dolphins... a really beatiful dream. I'm not sure of what is my dream. Do you have any beatiful dreams?
Re: One of my friends...
Yes, I do. I dream that Javier buys me a new Nikon that I take stunning photos with and everyone comments "Well seen, great capture!"

Wait, that last part would be more of a cliched nightmare... ;-)